00:00:00 Speaker 2

Interview conducted by David Barwani- Rai 18 November 2025. For Natur am Byth Living Legends project with Nigel Brown.

00:00:11 Speaker 2

Hello, Nigel. Pleasure to have you here.

00:00:14 Speaker 1

Pleasure to be here.

00:00:16 Speaker 2

To start off with, could you describe what your childhood was like and how that influenced your passion for nature?

00:00:23 Speaker 1

Yeah, it was a very, very happy childhood and I hope most children were able to say that, but it certainly was, one of two children with extremely attentive, loving parents, and we lived on the edge of the City of Sheffield, which perhaps doesn't sound a promising start for

00:00:40 Speaker 1

Somebody that was going to get so interested in Natural History, but it was for two reasons. One, we were on the edge of the city and if you know Sheffield right on the edge of the.

00:00:51 Speaker 1

Peak District so literally within half a mile of our door was as vast area, a National Park of Moorland, Fine rivers and Woodlands, and places where as a child you could walk freely and have great adventures and mum and Dad encouraged us to do that, mostly in their company.

00:01:12 Speaker 1

Often, though, we headed off as we grew older on our own, with either my sister or just our friends and, and so that was

00:01:23 Speaker 1

exciting as a child, to feel that sense of freedom to explore the natural world with mum and Dad's guidance. My father was in a casual way, very interested in Natural History and as a child, as children did at that time took an interest in looking for birds nests, for example. He was very keen on butterflies.

00:01:43 Speaker 1

And I guess looking back, birds and butterflies were the thing that started me off, probably with Dad's influence.

00:01:51 Speaker 1

But additionally, Dad was keen on plants and was a great gardener and particularly vegetable gardener. So he introduced me to that side of things as well.

00:02:00 Speaker 1

So, I felt I had a good connection with the natural world through both what went on in the garden at home and then what went on when we went for walks as a family and and it was a, It was largely a

00:02:15 Speaker 1

Family affair, which I think also helps it creates that that warm, passionate feeling about a topic if you're all involved with it. Yeah, I suppose as I became a teenager, yes, I would. I would increasingly go off to the woods on my own because I felt more confident or met up with other friends to do the same.

00:02:37 Speaker 1

And as I was beginning to get more knowledgeable, and then that would mean me going off early morning or in the evening to see specific birds and have to spend a bit more time than was necessarily the case when we went for, general walks. But it was a, it was an experience in totality.

00:03:01 Speaker 1

That increasingly convinced me that that's the way I want it to go, whatever job I particularly did, it was or would have to be something to do with Natural History and the other great influence was a wonderful Natural History society in Sheffield. Again, you wouldn't think an industrial city such as Sheffield would nurture such a good Natural History society, but it did, and it was called the Sowerby Natural History Society.

 

 

00:03:32 Speaker 1

After a steel magnet in the 19th century who was very keen, as many Victorians were on on the natural world and he established this wonderful, quite historic Natural History society which was very well organised and it held lots of meetings.

00:03:53 Speaker 1

It was split up into sections and there were. Mycology and birds and plants and we were able to go along for a very small fee to any of these wonderful talks and field trips. And I remember going on my first moth trapping event at a local wood.

00:04:10 Speaker 1

And it was just magical, you know, being allowed out A at night.

00:04:16 Speaker 1

And and just being in a wood with lots of other people looking at a bright light and and all the moths that came to it and it really sticks in my mind. So that was an early introduction to moths that I really, really enjoyed. But there were lots of opportunities in Sheffield and the Sheffield Bird Study group developed in my early teens and that really encouraged youngsters and not just to go out and Bird watch, but actually to

00:04:48 Speaker 1

take a more discerning look at habitats and birds. Bird numbers, behaviour, so I began to count birds and analyse what they were doing and.I guess at the time I didn't think much about it, but this was a very good. Sort of scientific introduction to how biologists should conduct themselves, what they should be looking for, what they should be recording, and it was just the best way, best introduction to that approach that you could hope to have. 

00:05:21 Speaker 1

So I think I was very. lucky you know strong supportive, interested family, wonderful surroundings and great resources in terms of teaching and encouragement from the Natural History groups available in Sheffield, yeah.

00:05:40 Speaker 2

So I've had the pleasure of meeting a lot of your students in my time in this traineeship, and they all speak incredibly highly of you. What do you feel makes a good lecturer, and do you feel it's more important passing on knowledge or inspiration?

00:05:56 Speaker 1

It is a difficult one to answer simply.

00:06:01 Speaker 1

I think. Perhaps a passionate feeling towards the subject is essential if you're going to be a good lecturer, that passion has to be sincere and it has to be overt. In an audience of whatever age, description and situation and.

00:06:24 Speaker 1

One of the things that I was very lucky with during my working career was.

Having many opportunities to speak.

Sometimes informally, and other times formally.

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And in many different situations, both from in the field to lecture theatres and everything in between.

00:06:45 Speaker 1

So that it became second nature to me to describe the things that I loved and knew a bit about. As I say to this wide variety of audiences in a wide variety of situations. So,

00:07:03 Speaker 1

Hopefully didn't to me personally, ever feel too onerous because with practise you get hopefully better at these sorts of things. They become more natural to you, more instinctive, And you feel at ease. And then because of that, hopefully

00:07:23 Speaker 1

That feeling of being at ease with your topic and your audience, it transmits to the audience themselves, and they feel as if they're being spoken to as individuals.

00:07:34 Speaker 1

By somebody hopefully that knows what they're talking about clearly is enthusiastic, wants to be there, wants their company, wants to enthuse them with the same passion and some knowledge.

00:07:47 Speaker 1

I think passion and knowledge. Are doubly important, but I think probably it's the passion that's the most important thing because these days certainly it's true. You can go off and read about, topic quite easily on in on the number of in a number of ways.

00:08:08 Speaker 1

But I think I really enjoyed giving a lecture or at all when I felt on top of my subject that I felt I knew the information, second nature.

And that the performance was right for the occasion. And I think when it boils down to a lot of lecturing.

00:08:35 Speaker 1

It is a performance it you're getting up on a stage, whatever that stage is. It can be a field. Or it can be a platform in a lecture theatre and you are presenting.

00:08:51 Speaker 1

A story. It's an act in many ways. Its got to be more than just reading a text. And it's got to be more than just a string of conversational pieces. There has to be a structure in the message and some information.

00:09:15 Speaker 1

And therefore in that sense, I don't think it's any different from a playwright writing a script for an actor and that actor is part of a story. If the audience enjoys that actors performance in the play that you've succeeded and there is a purpose to the whole thing, and each player contributes to that. And so I felt in that sense I was.

00:09:44 Speaker 1

An actor in the play, which was all about moulding students into an understanding of the natural world. My colleagues would act in a different way.

00:09:58 Speaker 1

And that's what made being at universities so fascinating is that within a single day, you you could have a range of lecturing techniques and topics which hopefully the bright minded students would bring together and take the best of it and mould it to their own needs and interests.

00:10:18 Speaker 1

Mine was just part of that and I have to admit that compared to many of my colleagues.I came at It. Perhaps less from a hard science point of view.

00:10:30 Speaker 1

And always tried to at least have a portion of the lecture and information content that that was holistic, that that was a bit of an overview because I knew that many of my colleagues, which for instance, on the biochemistry side or genetics.

00:10:50 Speaker 1

Would have to drill right down to these essential molecular aspects or details of Physiology. Which I couldn't do because that's beyond me. That's another level and maybe part of my function was to draw some of these somewhat disparate detailed elements together to make them sound more relevant in the greater scheme of things, and I think.

00:11:20 Speaker 1

Probably. As I progressed through my teaching career that that was more and more important to me and.if people enjoyed that approach, then that was great. I think in terms of my comfort zone, I was probably happiest in the field or in the Botanic Garden.

00:11:42 Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:11:44 Speaker 1

Because I had all the props I could ever hope for, and there's no doubt that living organisms, plant or animal, large or small, are a great prompt both for you as a lecturer and the audience.

00:11:59 Speaker 1

And I would find that with children as much as students and older people, there's an uncertainty about being in the field, which is rather.

00:12:12 Speaker 1

Is rather healthy uncertainty. It keeps you on your toes. It often suggests things you hadn't thought about, and for the audience too. It means that one performance is never the same as the other. And so.

00:12:30 Speaker 1

I liked that in a lecture theatre there is a constraint, time, often very much so. four walls, not much plant life, which is why for most of my plant lectures I used to bring in loads of stuff.

00:12:46 Speaker 1

From the Botanic Garden, those were my props and they couldn't really work very well without them. And I think I hope the students enjoyed having some greenery on the platform when I spoke.

00:13:00 Speaker 1

You have to remember when I started lecturing, even using slide projectors was, you know that was still quite new. So having a living plant to discuss was a big help. Yeah, I did rely a lot. I think on props, looking back and then of course, there's slide projection became the norm. I used an awful lot of illustrations.

00:13:29 Speaker 1

To embellish the story that I was trying to tell, but then I came a cropper because PowerPoint. Just was beyond me and I don't know why. I mean, I think, I can see what a fantastically powerful tool PowerPoint is, and I wish I'd mastered it and I haven't. And I I just.

00:13:54 Speaker 1

Sort of gave up at the point where that was taking over and the digital revolution was changing so much of how students learned and how lecturers performed, and I sort of psychologically made the decision I'll quit whilst I'm ahead at the level I felt comfortable with.

00:14:17 Speaker 1

I didn't feel comfortable with PowerPoint. I didn't feel comfortable about having everything about my lecture online because I wasn't that well organised. And the modern student understandably expects. There to be a synopsis of every lecture ahead of the actual lecture and then.

00:14:37 Speaker 1

Available afterwards, and that's not how it worked. To be quite frank. There were many lectures where I didn't know where I would end. And in that sense, wasn't exactly making it up as I went along, but I was, I was altering it and it evolved sometimes according to the level of understanding of the students or.

00:15:00 Speaker 1

A particular way I wanted to teach. Which actually became apparent as I was teaching, so it wasn't something that I went into every lecture with a hard and fast aim it was somewhat open-ended and certainly was with practicals of which I did many and with field trips. So The thing is nowadays I think the constraints because of the number of students involved and the complexity of courses.

00:15:37 Speaker 1

Means that. You know less and less able to get away with that more open-ended approach, which I I'm sorry about because I think that learning is, at every stage, an evolving one and the student should see it in that way the lecturer presenter is putting forward a set of opinions and a a body of knowledge which is open to criticism and discussion.

00:16:10 Speaker 1

It should be time to do that and it shouldn't be seen as the end. Point or the final admission on the on the topic, but yeah, I was very lucky to come through a period of teaching and university life that was. Can I say it's more, I think somewhat more creative, less formal.

00:16:43 Speaker 1

And that was because. You know, I probably had certainly in the first half of my career, far fewer students to, you know, to teach and some of my fine year modules only had 10 students, so.

00:16:57 Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, from my experience of lecturing in this sort of PowerPoint era, I can definitely see what you're saying in terms of maybe there being less creative freedom as you sort of go into each lecture knowing exactly what you're going to get out of it. Knowing the slides and there are often very little deviation from that.

00:17:16 Speaker 1

Yeah, it's very prescriptive, isn't it, yes.

00:17:17 Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:17:21 Speaker 2

And so would you, throughout your lectureship career, was there a specific topic that you were always the most excited to lecture on or you felt that was ever changing as your own passions and your own knowledge on certain areas changed and also depending on the students you had?

00:17:42 Speaker 1

Quite a few I think I can think of several ferns being one, because our understanding of ferns evolved a lot during the 80s and 90s. Both their biochemistry interaction with the natural environments, things like spore dormancy, genetics. We learned so much more about genetics and their propensity for polyploidization and all that means.

00:18:14 Speaker 1

For their evolution and their ecological performance, there were strong links between the two which we'd never really. Grasped before. Changing fern Flora Britain because of climate change, increased understanding of bio geography, which interested me hugely.

00:18:37 Speaker 1

And because Wales is so good for ferns, then.

Getting the students out looking at them was always a treat and we I, I got the students to make a herbarium. Which was something quite novel and which was just a sort of practical.

00:18:58 Speaker 1

Side to the the lecture module which you know students really I think very much enjoyed. It was something very different. So yeah. Ferns certainly pops straight out as one of the key ones.

00:19:16 Speaker 1

I think probably. Lecturing generally about what we rather dismissively call the lower plant groups firms, the horse, tails, the algae, the bryophytes, the cycads always gave me great satisfaction because I knew that very few other universities in Britain dealt with them.

00:19:40 Speaker 1

And yet they were key to understanding the evolution of the higher plants. The flowering plants. There was a lot of new information coming online, Paleo botanically, which was fascinating. And so that enabled you to make these groups sound more relevant.

00:20:00 Speaker 1

And, and their deep time story became more explicit and and understood. And I guess I've always had that interest in geology and sort of temporal facet of life on Earth and I think it's absolutely fascinating and and I think it's still very relevant. To how we perceive the flora and fauna of today, it gives us a temporal perspective, which I think is often so.

00:20:43 Speaker 1

Is missing entirely. You know we we see the world as it is today. And it's just this real snapshot and you know, to ignore what's happened over a period of certainly several 100 million years is. Is really ignorant and you know one should not do that. And then when you're trying to project the future, then it's so much, makes so much more sense to project the future in terms of our understanding of the past.

00:21:16 Speaker 1

So. Yeah, looking back, I think that temporal aspect of f all the topics I taught about was always there and I think as you grow older time takes on a different meaning because you've had your own time on the planet, and you've seen how things change and you want to make sure that others like yourself have that.

00:21:47 Speaker 1

That same somewhat well it should be hardwired approach, but I don't think it necessarily is. And of course, individually it might be quite subjective, but I think our understanding of. You know, ancient DNA and paleobiology generally is now so rich. We've, we've got this wonderful. Treasure House of Knowledge of the past, and we should make use of it. And then it really embellishes the story just like we think,

00:22:24 Speaker 1

Understanding the ancestry of any human being makes that human being so much more interesting. If you know who your grandfather was and what they did where they lived, and so on and so on, all the way back. And you think, Crikey, you know, I'm the living representative of all that. It's the same with plants and animals as far as I'm concerned.

00:22:44 Speaker 1

Didn't just pop up yesterday or pop out of nowhere, they've there's a lineage that goes back to times when the planet was so different and the plant and animal communities were so different. And we again are just looking at a snapshot of that.

00:22:59 Speaker 1

The latest manifestation of that which is interesting but is far more interesting if you understand what's. What's gone before so?

00:23:10 Speaker 1

Yeah, I got the chance towards the end to do a bespoke lecture course on the British flora and that was fantastic. That was the title “the British Flora” and within that I could lecture on anything we didn't have to write a prospectus. So every year that changed and increasingly.

00:23:32 Speaker 1

Changes in the British flora due to climate and habitat loss became more and more important and I love doing that it really, there was so much overlap with what was interesting me in a day-to-day basis. And then I could use that experience I had of local flora changes and translated into a lecture course. Again, ferns were to the fore, but a wide range of other species.

00:24:06 Speaker 1

Of flowering plants came in and again because we had many of these things on the doorstep in terms of looking at them in the field and there was a practical element of that to that course as well, which was lovely.

00:24:23 Speaker 1

Yeah, and ecology, general ecology. I wrapped ecology into pretty well everything I did.

00:24:31 Speaker 1

I think that's vital. You know, all the things that we want lectures about, whether it be plant or animal, they don't just exist on their own. They're part of communities and that's how they evolve. And therefore, if you don't understand the whole community, and its habitat, then you might as well just be.

00:24:50 Speaker 1

Well, you're out of step, really. You're just taking something out of context and hoping to understand it and that that doesn't work.

00:24:58 Speaker 2

So you mentioned that temporal. aspect and obviously throughout your career, how we view the natural world and how we study it has changed immensely and you know how we connect with it.

00:25:15 Speaker 2

Do you think that we are sort of understanding Natural History and the essence of life more due to the incredible scientific and technological advancements we're able to make or, understanding it less as most people aren't living being very connected to nature, you know, living more off technology, off phones, off laptops. And then that generating less interactions with it daily.

00:25:44 Speaker 1

That’s a really very good question and I don't think I can answer it very easily at all, because I think you're absolutely right. The increased scientific knowledge, increases our respect and interest and admiration for all forms of life, hugely and the more detail you know, the greater your, yes amazement, for Natural History. And the knowledge itself is a beautiful thing, and I think it increases the beauty of everything. The knowledge applies to beauty and in a spiritual and an understanding way as in addition to the immediate visual beauty, etcetera.

00:26:39 Speaker 1

But as you say, at the moment it's come up with a cost because there are far more people that are, you know, their day-to-day lives disconnected from nature. And that worries me a great deal as the population of the world becomes more urban than rural then.

00:26:59 Speaker 1

We've got to face the fact that Natural History as we know it at the moment. Is it going to be relevant and I don't know the answer to that. I just would like to hope that by better understanding the natural world, there'll be more respect in the future and that we can learn to, work with it rather than against it, to harness it in a sustainable way for our own betterment.

00:27:41 Speaker 1

It's it sounds a bit idealistic. I I guess I'll often think that ain't gonna happen because we seem hardwired to destroy it. So I think the next 50-100 years are are going to be. Yeah, obviously very influential in terms of. Biodiversity, human health, both spiritual and physical and I really can't predict what's going to happen. I wish I could.

00:28:15 Speaker 1

If only for David Attenborough's sake, because he won't be around for much longer to know. But you think how much it's changed in his lifetime it's hardly recognisable. And to be the same planet and I, wonder what goes through his mind on a daily basis.

00:28:39 Speaker 1

I think perhaps he puts a brave face on it, certainly for the camera, and I think inside he must be desperately anxious about the future, both for the human species and for all the animals and plants, he's enjoyed over the many years, but. I would, I would hope that the present problems that's facing the world should unleash a bit of David Attenborough spirit in all of us.

00:29:09 Speaker 1

In what clearly was for him a lifetime interest, a boyish interest, an immediate spontaneous interest in wildlife is what sustained him throughout a career, what spanning nine decades?

00:29:26 Speaker 1

That's gotta be important. I mean that if you could transfer some of that feeling that he has for the planet. To everybody. Either through the airwaves or in a pill it would.Be wonderful. It would solve so many problems.

00:29:47 Speaker 1

I think one of the problems that I personally have is that, you know, instantly that the way you see the world is rather subjective as it is for all of us. And that maybe I'm at one end of a continuum and there's another end that's completely different.

00:30:04 Speaker 1

A lot in the middle, therefore, how important is the feeling I have for the way forward? I think it's desperately important because I don't see the world in any other way but a diversity rich world where the way we operate as human beings is a sustainable one, with the respect for nature, I can't see it working otherwise, but other people probably see it differently.

00:30:31 Speaker 1

And.

00:30:34 Speaker 1

And also have a short term single generation approach. I'm hoping that I'm here looking much further ahead than that. And that increasingly, other people are too, but it's not guaranteed.

00:30:51 Speaker 2

So you lead the Anglesey Flora Group. How has the floral diversity changed over your time, living on Anglesey and are you seeing signs of climatic shifts in this floral diversity?

00:31:08 Speaker 1

Changed quite a lot. I would say the principal factor is farming or when I first knew Anglesey, there was more arable and more mixed farming. Now it's mostly what I would describe as pastoral grazing

00:31:22 Speaker 1

With an increasing emphasis on silage and, unfortunately, silage production, both on Anglesey and Britain as a whole has, to my mind, been the single most negative influence on the British flora because it occupies a huge amount of land space. It's dependent on high fertiliser input. It's a strict regime of harvesting.

00:31:48 Speaker 1

And herbicide use and all of those factors reduce the scope for native flora. That is shown in a reduction in the number of and frequency of native plants on anglesey since since I started. I couldn't point a finger to say that it's led to any complete extermination. But it's been a big factor.

00:32:19 Speaker 1

And the loss of arable has meant that species that are adapted to disturbed habitats, whether those been natural or man made and of course in man made sense. That's through ploughing and other mechanical disturbance for arable plant production. Those of all declined.

00:32:39 Speaker 1

So many familiar arable weeds such as poppies, are now scarce on the island, and we have lost one or two of those. Many of those aren't strictly native. They're what we call Archaeophytes. They came in with the first farmers, often thousands of years ago.

00:32:57 Speaker 1

But they become honorary members of our flora, and it's sad they've declined because of farming and use of pest herbicides and additional fertilisers.  So that's been a negative effect.

00:33:17 Speaker 1

To counter that, though, the islands flora now has more species in it than I remember in the 70s and, and that was documented in the 70s because the arrival of neophytes of alien species that follows the British trend, a nationwide trend. So, for example, the last few years we've been seeing the spread of the so-called Fleabanes.

00:33:38 Speaker 1

Which are from South America and we have at least three species on the island, two of which in the last five years are spreading rapidly and will continue to do so in the taking advantage of Brownfield site, roadside verges, industrial sites, disturbed sites of all kinds and.

00:34:01 Speaker 1

And they're interesting. And their and their rapid spread is, is fascinating ecological phenomenon. And I'm increasingly accepting that a modern flora, and anglesey is no different in this than anywhere else is now a cosmopolitan flora.

00:34:23 Speaker 1

It's perhaps inappropriate to consider the flora of any one region as being or having any relevance in a native sense, because we now know that there are more introduced species present in Britain than there are native species 

that balance was tipped about 10 years ago.

00:34:46 Speaker 1

And, that is true on Anglesey and the recombination now of neophytes, some archetypes with the native flora is really very interesting to see how these new near neighbours are getting on and the new plant and animal communities that they will.

00:35:08 Speaker1

Result in is ecologically very interesting. And there is a certain enrichment to be had here. I mean, as I said earlier, I come from Sheffield and the city centre in Sheffield has several big rivers and the river corridors are now this mishmash of plants from all over the world and are very rich. And there's probably far more diversity there than there was when I was a child there.

00:35:34 Speaker 1

I'm split in that I can see a loss of natives native plants which saddens me, but I can see a compensating enrichment from overseas.

00:35:50 Speaker 1

It's interesting that I guess that also reflects, of course, the trends in, in the human population in Britain and this cosmopolitan, perspective. Now that we see every day in our lives, whether we're looking at.

00:36:09 Speaker 1

Human faces or wildlife it. It's an interesting parallel trend. So whereas I used to regard all the alien species, the neophytes as yeah,  not really consequential. I was far more interested in the natives. I don't see it like that now. I think I'm equally interested in in both.

00:36:35 Speaker 1

And certainly, when the floral group goes out now, we record everything that we see when we write the new flora. It will respect the presence of every species, whether it's native or alien, and describe it ecologically.

00:36:52 Speaker 1

And then become a benchmark. We hope for the future, because the future is cosmopolitan and it will have been useful to have noted the first appearance of these fleabanes, and in one hundred years time people will say yes, we know that Bilbao's fleabane was first seen in 2019.

00:37:13 Speaker 1

In Holyhead, and now, it's all over the island or not? Who knows. So you know that's really interesting if you're an ecologist and once you get to know the introduced species, they are each in their own right. Fascinating, and their response to a new environment It really piques your interest and.

00:37:42 Speaker 1

Yeah, I think it does add interest to the countryside. When I'm out and about in the Wilder places of Anglesey, I have to admit around the coast, for example, on the sand dune system on a rocky headland, that's where I really want to be surrounded by native plants that I know have succeeded there for so long.

00:38:02 Speaker 1

All the postglacial. And you think? Ohh you know, I'm looking at a community that perhaps has not changed very much and that, as we sort of spoke about before, that temporal facet to me adds a lot of integrity and heft to plant or animal community longevity. That persistence through time.

00:38:29 Speaker 1

Is something I respect and value a lot. And should want to conserve. But at the same time, you know I think my mind is now also, very much stimulated and interested by the changes within the more urbane urban environment and the rural environment that we're seeing.

00:38:57 Speaker 2

And so finally, what advice would you have for young naturalists and conservationists starting out their careers?

00:39:08 Speaker 1

First of all, follow your passions. If you've got a particular interest, then take it as far as you can by getting help and advice from other experts. Taking every opportunity to do practical things either with an NGO or a government agency, ideally and make your mark within, try and make your mark within a particular field.

00:39:35 Speaker 1

And take your opportunities. I think putting things down in in print can often help. And looking back on my own career, I wish I'd perhaps written more published more as and when the opportunities arose and these days, that's more, that's easier I think to do by various online platforms as well as.

00:40:05 Speaker 1

In print, as it were, and I think take those opportunities if you fancy producing A blog or making comments online. Go for it and that make yourself known to that cohort of people that will that will be interested. I think that there is a lot of potential amongst young people for writing.

00:40:30 Speaker 1

Which is often not. They don't perceive that they have either the ability or the opportunity to do that. And I think actually they should do it as frequently as possible. Make your views felt in as novel and exciting and passionate way as possible, and you'll get noticed and cultivate a good manner with people because you want to influence them and you won't do that by being.

unfriendly, impolite, obnoxious in any way try and gain people's trust and respect and admiration. Just through the normal, physical ways that we do as humans so relate to people where as best you can. Have conviction about your own passions and interests, if you strongly believe in the importance of maintaining the biological integrity of the planet then be true to that and stick with it. Even though there will undoubtedly be obstacles to that and there will be hard forces running against you, you've really got to stick to your guns.

00:41:51 Speaker 1

And again I can think of times in the past when I haven't been as strong to my principles as I should have been, and I've seen things take a wrong turn because of it, so I think.

00:42:07 Speaker 1

Be strong about this. There needs to be far more youthful pressure for the for the natural environment than there is at the moment. I'm I feel it's really lacking here in Britain, we've seen the emergence of some personalities. But not persistently enough and not with the wide appeal that's necessary. We spoke earlier about Hamza and I do flag him up as somebody that I think has achieved a great deal in a short space of time.

00:42:47 Speaker 1

And I think it's probably worth looking at how he's done that and trying to mimic parts of it because it's working. Of course, that sort of very public operation doesn't suit everybody. There's many ways in which we can, we can achieve a lot.

00:43:13 Speaker 1 

And I think it's, it's up to everybody to find the groove in which they work best, whether that's part of a bigger team or whether it's on your own, whether it's within a formal organisation or it doesn't really.

00:43:26 Speaker 1

Better, but you've got to feel comfortable and maintain your passion and feel that your passion is appreciated. I think as well and if it isn't, get out of it. There's plenty of other opportunities these days and I would say that, don't restrict your ambition to this country.

00:43:46 Speaker 1

I think at the moment Britain is in a rather wretched rut in terms of the environment and that can be very Waring and debilitating on a young, enthusiastic mind and I would say if you have the opportunity to work abroad.

00:44:01 Speaker 1

At different scales, for instance, in North America, where reserves and conservation areas exist on huge landscape scales, these are very exciting places to go and understand and learn a trade and then come back perhaps, and apply them to Britain. But go out and  enjoy and benefit from that if you can. I think travel is really important again, I rather regret I didn't do so much travelling. I am very parochial and I often look at the North Wales landscape and think you know, I love it, but it could be a lot better. And I think I would know a bit more about how it could be a lot better if I had seen more examples even within the British Isles within Scotland and certainly if I'd gone to Fenno Scandinavia and seen how larger scale forests and Moorland work, that's really instructive. So I would say.

00:45:01 Speaker 1

Travel and exposure to landscapes where things are working better, more naturally, where communities are working more sustainably, perhaps where politics allows that to work more. So that's all good. You want to come away With a with positive experiences rather than negative ones, cause negative ones. Really.

00:45:34 Speaker 1

If you get too many of them, they are really wearing and they affect your whole psyche and perspective and so always try and balance the negative with the positive and go out and find those positive examples. They're there if you look for them and then apply them.

00:45:54 Speaker 1

And I think people like positive news and that when you then get to the point where you've got to put forward a plan or a, you've got to articulate a passion then yeah, try and make it as positive as possible and that comes from direct experience I think.

00:46:11 Speaker 1

So yeah, those are just a few ramblings but hope they make some sense. Desperately, desperately need young people to get interested in the environment and do all they can and come up with novel ways of doing it as well. And I think the opportunities now, for both articulation in in every sense and just basically doing things with new sciences and technologies at both on a reserve level and in a scientific lab are just so great. You know, there's going to be so many new discoveries in the next 50 to 100 years and which will impact upon the planet both negatively and positively. It's being open on how to use those will be, will be vital for the next stage, I think.

00:47:04 Speaker 1

When I look around at how we manage reserves now as to how we manage them 50 years ago, again, it's gone up in leaps and bounds and there are ways in which people with all sorts of passions and expertises can contribute to that. You can be a civil engineer and make a huge impact by knowing how to manage water levels. Marine ingress and habitat construction

00:47:38 Speaker 1

You can be a plant ecologist and know what communities might do best and how to encourage them. You can be a specialist coleopterist and know exactly what intimate bit of the ecological platform is required. So it's about creating those stages for evolution to play out on that is going to be important in the future against some very different and powerful driving forces and I think the naturalist of the future needs to know how to manage all those new influences to achieve what they want.

00:48:21 Speaker 2

Well, thank you very much, Nigel. It's been an absolute pleasure getting to speak with you. I hope you've enjoyed this experience as much as I have and I hope our paths will cross again in the nearby future.