Full summary of interview with Albert Victor Wheeler by David Mathias, 1982.
Duration: 01:30:54 Transcript created: September 2025

Note: [Due to the quality of the original recordings, originally made on portable cassette recorders in the 1980s, the recording has been heavily processed to enhance the voices captured. In some cases, information is unintelligible. Some inaccuracies may persist. Where information was unintelligible, the transcript uses [?] to mark these occurrences.]

Side 1

00:00:03 David MathiasDo you mind if I record. Otherwise, prevent me taking notes. Yu went over then with the RWF. You were called up eventually.
 00:00:16 A V WheelerWhile I was in the 53rd Young Soldier Battalion and the Welsh RegimentAnd uh. We appeared in Carmarthen Barracks
 00:00:28 A V WheelerAnd uh, the detachment now, that have been passed by the doctors there. There were going to Cardiff Barracks.
 00:00:38 David MathiasMaindy Barracks is it, I’d expect.
 00:00:39 A V WheelerI suppose it was. And uh, of course we were in [?]. And we have no place in the barracks in the stone building because there are so many of us.We were put in a sort of, YMCA, acting as a gymnasium or something for the barracksI was there for a couple of days. And then I went out on the detachment, then back to Kimmel Park. And there I was in the 53rd Young Soldier Battalion [South Wales Borderers]
 00:01:26 A V WheelerBeing that I was category B1 at Cardiff. I had the option now, of coming home.And I thought to myself it would look a bit funny on me.After we ship all my friends and my parents, but to be back again in about a week's time.So, [category B1] owing to smallness, physically fit otherwise.And uh.I had to go [?] before the agent. I sat in his office. And he said, we have considered you, you are a bit lightweight and small. And for the [?] time that would have to go have go through, they didn't think I'd stick up for it.So I have the option now. So I had the option, now, of getting my warrant and going home.Now, I was firing, I had a job of importance, national importance. I was a fireman now on the local course in the National Shell Factory [National filling Factory?]. In Pembrey, you see?And our job, now, was to remove the shells from the [?] which was right down on the beach. Oh, that was all taken away now by the tide, you see?And we're back now, 1916, 1972.We were bringing the shells up then to the Landor stores. There were two huge stores there. There was everything in that store from 18-pounders up to the 18-inch. From the big, er, [warships], you see. [?] And he says, this young fellow, he says, [?] finishing with the army [?] and want to volunteer now. I want to take him down to the [?master] and I want this young fellow to be specially rigged out, he said. Hard hat, silver badges [?] And when I went up now to Kinmel Park, we were on the musketry drill. And how to handle, er, a rifle and bayonet, it's pretty heavy. For a lightweight. I was, what was I, I was 18, 18 a couple of days. And, of course, when you were on the musketry. when you were holding the rifle up now with fixed bayonet. You felt a tidy weight.When you were going through the motion that the musketry sergeant was, er, he wanted, you see? So the captain come along. And, er, he come and spoke, he spoke, he said, er...How old are you, son?18 in a couple days, sir.Do you play any instruments? Would you like to play?I said, yes, sir, very much. I'd like to be a drummer, sir.Well, he said, I see the drum sergeant, and get you shifted down from the ranks.How I jumped down from the fire up and into the fire. Because although I was a side drummer, and the side drum in the army was heavy, you still had your full marching order and your kit same as a rifleman.You see, I had the drum in addition. And now when we got across there then, [?], we were a 32-mile march. You see, when you were marching up to take your positions, if you fell out, he was on his bloody horse, and he turned round, he had a colt revolver, and if you didn’t get back he’d shot you. That was the ruling.
00:05:46So there was a full corporal by the name Dick Turpin. He was a bigger fellow than me, see. [?] 00:06:14 David MathiasThis is this is after.
 00:06:18 A V WheelerWell, just after the war Armistice, Armistice was signed on the eleventh, and I'm talking about the 20th.
 00:06:25 David MathiasSo you were with the Army of Occupation?
 00:06:27 A V WheelerYes, the first Army of Occupation
 00:06:31 David MathiasWhich battalion was that?
 00:06:34 A V WheelerAt that stage, it was the South Wales Borderers. 53rd battalion South Wales Borderers and while we were out there, we got transferred then to the 52nd they broke the 53rd Welsh up and put me in the 4th reserved battalion, the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. From there we went down South and then across.
 00:07:00 David MathiasSo, you served in all three?
 00:07:01 A V WheelerWhen we got across then, the next thing I knew, that the RWF had finished, and they put in us with a borderers [?] and I met two fellows from here. One was Conway Evans, you know, Conway Evans, you know. And Reggie Thomas, they were in school with me.[?]00:07:26 David MathiasSo, you met these out there, in Germany? You met these boys in Germany?
 00:07:29 A V WheelerWell, I met them in Dunkirk. Before we went up, you see.And I met, when we marched in, who was on the marshalling yard in Dunkirk, we were going down to the rest camp there, the big rest camp. The [?] of many days up in the line were coming down for a rest, you see. And there was another big one in Calais. Now there was [blokes?] in most camps, that were bouncers, and they made your life so uncomfortable, that you were glad to get back into the trenches out of their way.A lot of them were shocked.But if you [read the work?] of Victor Silvester, the band leader, was down in Calais. [?] And anyhow, now, we did the march now to Rheinbach, and our feet now were swollen and blistered.Medical officer of health, and examined all our feet. That’s all he recommended was, there was a hotel in Rheinbach and we had and we had to get hot water from there and soap. Soap was very scarce in Germany. So I don't know where the hell they had to soap, [?]. We had to wash your feet, take the blisters, wash your feet. Wash your socks, see the grey socks, see that they were well soaked up.And then, we had to put the socks back on wet [?] ready for next march next to. We went to a place called Alfter. And, that was now, six miles the other side of the line, in case now, peace wouldn't be signed, you see. And then we'd have the advantage.  [?] 00:09:49So, anyhow, we, we went to this place called Münstereifel.And there was four foot of snow on the road. And I'm, I think it was somewhere around, on the 28th, or 30th or something.And, as we went up the lanes [?] it was a small village, all cobbles stone, [?] all the sentries took over then, and you questioned anybody that was coming in out of that.And, about 50 yards on the left, now there was a post officer. The military [?] took over that.But, I didn't, go in there straight away. We went up the [?] with them. And, we had gone up about two of the yards [?] the quartermaster,He said, all right boys, six of you in there, two of them were there, four of them were there. Didn't matter a damn. [?] 00:11:25Anyhow, as he was giving the orders, no, I’ve made a mistake, he said. Didn't [?] any of us.Well, the sister came to the door, see what was going on as well, and she was a good. So, we went higher up, now. And, the rest of us boys went into this place, and it happened to be Professor Mooler [?], and he was a professor of languages, and he could speak 26 languages fluently.And he came down to talk to the boys, and it was very nice. A gentleman.And, we told him, if it had been the other way around, and the Germans come into our homes, I don't suppose we'd have the same respect as what we were giving him, see.And, we advised him, now, to take all his furniture out [?] So, anyhow, in this place we were, and I was in the passage, and his niece got down,And the first thing she told me ‘King George [?]’ And she screamed, and the professor got down, and he said, what's the matter? I said, well, I intended to go to the toilet, and she says to me, ‘King George [?] [?] ‘King Gorge never started this [?]’[?] In the front room, you know, the transport, they were coming up, and they were coming up, now, the real rough boys, from France, you see,I warned the professor, for God's sake, now, keep her from these fellows.They started, having the bits of furniture, in the front room, and started a fire,[these are the boys of the trenches]Iasu mawr, I thought, you better keep your niece up there out of the way or they’ll tear her apart.[?]
 00:14:08 Now, he says, where is the forage sotes. I don’t know, sir. Wee bloody well go and find it, he said.I don't know what the hell forage meant man, and he was in charge of transport. I asked a couple of boys now if they knew.Yes, he said. All the mules are on a big square at the back of the street. And the forage stores it down this end.[?]
 00:15:07 So anyhow, I went up this lane. And there was a gate, opposite this, this bloody affair,And, uh...It was a low building.I went in. I said, ah, look at this, and I walked into the mortuary.One bloke on the bloody slab there, all cut up. And all the rest of coffins.
 [?]
 Down in the far end of the brook sitting on the chair.And I spoke to him in English. And he got up, he got a fright seeing me and [?]. He was the caretaker of the mortuary.So I came out again and met the squaddie man.And I said, where's the forage?Oh, yes. And he said, well, the officer has just sent me up with a message. He said, I don't know the hell he was.But he told me if we would have got so many [hay and oats?] on the square now to feed the bloody mules. 
 [?]
 And there was a maid there then, Lucille [?] German officer.I fell sick, lost my voice. The boys let me lie in the middle room. And she came in, and called the German doctor, and he cam ein to see me. And our Medical Officer of Health was in the bloody what you call it, a castle, a castle. He had his quarters there.And the German doctor said to him, he said, he's got a bad attack of influenza and a laryngitis.And he said, look, he said, I’’ fix him up a little [?] now. And he came back and mixed it after. And Lucille, was given the orders to give it to me, you see. All the boys were gone.  [?] 00:18:05But anyhow, now, when it was reported, now, to the orderly sergeant, and our medical officer, had a blocking [?]   00:18:20 David MathiasSo, you went straight from here, then, to Germany. You didn't go to the trenches first. 00:18:25 A V WheelerOh, no. I never served in the trenches. We were in the first Army of Occupation. But now, listening to the stories of the boys, how that was mixing with us, you see.They were the ones, now, that was actually around deeply [?], Arras, on the Salient.Now, their stories, now, they were telling us about it, you see. And they must have been hellish. He was saying, on a Thursday afternoon, he was [?] like me. But he was a bigger brother than me, and he was about a month or two older, you see. And he had to go, in one of the last raps, because the R-W-F was a drafting battalion. You see. Every night of the week, there was a draft going out to branch. To various battalions. The 4th Royal Welsh Fusiliers. We were three thousandths strong. We are A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H companies. Eight companies. And I think there was 500 in each company. You see.
 00:19:48 David MathiasAnd that was at Kinmel Park?
 00:19:50 A V WheelerNo, no, no, no, no. We did very little training in Kinmel Park. When I got transferred, we were sent from Kinmel Park down to [Herne Bay?] on East Coast. Under canvas. You see.And when we walked in. Not sure what time it was. But the [?] party had gone down to set up all the camps. The tents are on.I remember, well, when we marched [?]. And by eight o'clock that night, it was a field of mud. And we were only issuing to the groundsheet. No boards were the thing that else. You had your groundsheet. And you had a blanket and [?]. You had your kitbag and a pair of boots.
 00:20:45.960 
 And we were sleeping 22 to the tents. As one under every section. And round the tent pole, there was a webbing bracket where you were putting your rifles, you see.[?] Now, we were real training, was starting from there, you see. Half our dress, quarter hour dress, [parade?]. And it all depends on the orders. You'll be parading now for [?]After that, you'll be back into your tents. And stripped now for PT.What bloody PT. Hard graft. After PT, then. Back to musketry, bayonet musketry and the mills bombs. We used to carry the mills bombs. We had them in a net. See. Was issued to three or four of them.And going on, now. On to the training ground, you know, was sandbags.But the other instructions, from the sergeant, Prepare to throw. Exactly. And the want to sling it twenty-five yards or more if you could. Because in a matter of three seconds, it was going off.And the moment that [?] down. Owing to the shrapnel because it was fragmented. See.You've seen little squares like that.
 00:22:34 And, uh. I heard them. I was in B company.And when C company went on now, one of the boys was so nervous that he pulled the pin out and he dropped the bomb amongst the boys. Another fella picked it up and he went off in midair. They were all saved. A fright to see it.I remember that incident. And in the night, now, it was, you know, if the rain had ceased and there were little dry patches out there to be had, we were sleeping out.And down the night I slept out to my turn to sleep out [?] the German airs come over to bomb us. But now on the perimeter of the camp, there was trees.And the anti-aircraft guns now were there, you see. Now then, as soon as the German planes come in over, they had the satellites come in from London, which was 70-80.And from Faversham, because Chatham was a naval dockyard, you see. And they were being protected as well, you see. And there were caught in the searchlight in the sky. He'd light up, like fluorescent. He liked looking at the clock. They didn’t bring it down anyhow. And that's what he was talking about, was cigar bombs. And he'd do a lot of damage if he caught the camp.And things were going bad, now.  We were on, he had pillboxes now all around the rest of it, you see.And the machine guns about [?]And with the wet weather that followed, there were so many boys now.There was a hospital called Beltinge[?] Hospital in Herne-Bay.. [?] 00:26:20 David MathiasSo you went to Herne Bay then from Kimmel Park.
 00:26:23 A V WheelerAnd to Ipswich.
 00:26:25 David MathiasAnd that's the whole battalion. Would there be?
 00:26:27 A V WheelerYes. The whole lot. Now, where the Monmouthshire went, I don't know.We were under canvas all the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and the Monmouth was down in another camp, only a stone’s throw away. 00:26:48 David MathiasAnd they were posting people from Herne Day then?
 00:26:50 A V WheelerOhh, the boys now as their name was coming up 40 or 50 of you, will prepare now.I'll be coming down to the station [London], and the train would come in and take them down to Dover or Folkestone.Then the naval, then, was taking over these two ships.And they were acting as escorts. And those ships, now, were going across into Dunkirk and the naval escort, see.Once they got to Dunkirk, there was a base. They went off the line [?]
 00:27:35 David MathiasNow what sort of date are we talking about? We’re talking the last year of the war aren’t we? 00:27:40 The last year of the war, 1918 [summer of 1918]That's right. That was the heaviest of the fighting.The youngsters were weighing in, you see?[?]1917, beginning of 1918, Jerry nearly drove the British troops into the sea.That's what was said. They were getting all the youngsters together.[?]We were sent to a Ipswich, now, from Hearn Bay. And we were put in billets.Me and another fellow...He was a clown in Bronco Billy Circus[?]Hell of a case.[?]
 00:29:20 After I’d been home now, I think it was the fifth day. To the tinworks, to see the boys before I go back, see.It was about half past ten in the morning. Whilst I was there in [?], the message that came through, that armistice had been signed.[?] I went to home. Had my dinner. Well, the next day I was due back. I was taken now with a bad attack of flu. If it wasn’t for armistice being signed, I’d be back on the gunship.I don't know [?] doctor, he had three sons, and all of them were doctors. Dr. Cyril. He was a surgeon in the Royal Navy [?]. Dr. Vincent [?]  [?] 00:32:20 And, the policeman said, that he had had a telephone message, that a soldier is not allowed to be treated by a civilian doctor and that had to be removed now to a military hospital. [?]00:33:15 David MathiasThree days.
 00:33:18 David MathiasYes. CB now [?] barracks. The battalion had gone. Left behind.
 [?]
 00:35:02 A V WheelerSo, I went out now.I went out to the bloody draft now, [?] 00:35:30Down to Shoreham-by-Sea. And from Shoreham-by-Sea now, shift out to the bloody camp there now, because the South African heavy artillery was coming in. So they moved us now, to the... hotel [?]. Well, the bloody windows sills where about 6 or 7 feet, there was no room on the floor for us.[?] The next morning then, a wash, dress, on parade, [?] ship. The skipper was shouting through the megaphone, not to give them a blood y inch. [?] The old colonel was aboard. I was parading the deck, see. Some of the boys were sick, but I was enjoying it. And he said then, enjoying yourself, sunny. [?]How long have we been in the army? I said too bloody long, sir, and he laughed.And he said, you seem to be enjoying this trip. I answered as that I am, sir, as a change. I was brought up near the sea. I said it’s home from home [?]And anyhow, wished me Godspeed and all the best. And we landed in Dunkirk.  Marching up to this big camp.[?]
 00:38:18
 I think it was the Royal Welsh, Royal Welsh Fusiliers.And we trained now in cattle trucks, any bloody thing that that had wheels on.Now during the First World War, you see, the Germans had blown up the bridges, telephone communications, the bloody lot.And we were going through the actual battlefield, you know, and you could see… we had a fellow with us and he had a degree in Manchester University. And he could visualize all of this now [?]. And he was taking photographs[?] now, as we were going, the cattle trucks was only going about three miles, one mile an hour in some places. And he could jump out [?], but I jumped in again, see. [?] 00:40:52 A V WheelerSomething happened when we got to Lille. And there was a row of horses [?]. And a bloody shell had gone through the gable end and came out the other. And that must have been 8 or 9 houses there. Now, something happened, and the train slowed down and stopped. Some of the boys now came out of the cattle trucks, and they're pinching the bloody furniture. But the officer [?] gave them a fright, see. Now most people are coming back hoping to get some remains to set up a home and you buggers are going to destroy it now put the bloody lot back. And eventually now, I think it was three days or something, or three nights, we got the light up, we eventually got to this place, it was 16 kilometers from [?] We've got didn't know somewhere around another 28th or something like that. I stayed with Professor Muller,  00:42:22 David MathiasSo that story continues from there. 00:42:24 A V WheelerAnd from there, then, we had been there, now, for a while. We had to shift, now, because peace hadn't been signed, see. And we were taking over German territory, [?], and on a march now. I think it was in July or August or something, I forget.I know it was hot anyhow… and we had this 32-mile march.Still 1918, yes.[?] We had the lieutenant with us, his name was MacKaye, these people are millionaires because the Mackay [?], being that food was so scarce, give us our first Christmas dinner.December 25 of 1918All that, but now we just saw about 65 years ago.Anyhow, we had this Christmas dinner.And. Let's see. We had a couple of. On Sunday, December. January of 1919, February, March. The trouble broke out. Now, we are separate now with dispute and after… End of Side One  

Side 2

 00:44:52 A V WheelerWe had a lieutenant [?] us.When we got to a big [chateau?], there was a lot of Dutch children and prisoners. [?] we feed them. And there were big orchards, apples, cherries, and pears. It was as if some of these families now, owned sections of this big orchards.This chateau was a beautiful building when it was occupied by the people who owned it. Wide stairs going up, see. We were nosing around, there were difference passages, se. And one of the boys found a secret panel [?] nosing around, and he chucked something at one of the boys and shut the panel [?] and he turned around ‘who the hell threw that’, I didn’t throw bugger all, I know. So, he went out now behind the wall and opened another panel and threw something. I though the bloody place was haunted now. Everly was still in charge, lieutenant Everly, and he said if you ever see these bloody Germans, he said, [?] shot [?] In the chateau now, going up, there was sort of a winter [cabin?], more of a club hotel there man. Beautiful lawns and this and that. And all the ‘crachan’ now, all the boys [?] when things were simmering down now, they were there every Sunday, they’d go to Church at about 3 in the morning and then from [11?] and it's like a Saturday afternoon. Drinking to [?] 00:47:20 So, had [shoeing?] with Davies, a farrier, he was with us. And there was a fellow there byt the name of Private Roe, from Newport. And they were in the same quarters but [?] in the dinner room now in the Chateau. These boys now, have been drinking white wine. I don't know when you bother tasting it.  [?] Weeks or month, meant to drink water [?]. This fellow, ginger from [?] six feet four, 17 or 18 stone, and he must have fell out with the bartender and he picked them up [?]. the police were afraid to come in. Red wine I was going for see, so I said to my mate Reg [?]  00:48:38 There would be German girls in the allotment picking kidney beans, peas, and every bloody thing. I was an old man with a bloody beer. There were cherry trees and everything, and I jumped up now [?]Reg Owens now, he was a boxer, he was shaping and parrying and this and that, and the girls veered off. WE went back to the [?] and the lieutenant now he says, where have you gone? Hell of a place up there, sir, I said, [?] smashed the place up. And when they did come back, this ginger bloke went for [?], Roe didn’t shift half blooming quick I tell you.  Anyhow, we went back to our own quarters then. 00:50:05 David MathiasThat was in the 53rd battalion, then? 00:50:10Either the 53rd or the 52nd 00:50:13 David MathiasWhen were you transfer you from the 4th? 00:50:15 A V Wheeler
No, I don’t know, you’re asking me questions now. I don’t remember. Went out of my mind years and years ago. The sooner I forgot it the better
 00:50:27 David MathiasSo they kept you there then till … 00:50:29 A V WheelerNo, no. You see, trouble had broken out in Ireland. During the time of O'Connell wasn’t it. You had no, Ulster and Republic, there were nothing of that, it was all Ireland. Understand? Now the, Sinn Fein [?] So, it happened now, we had to [?] get all our arms together, bloody lot, train now, [to Calais?] three days three nights, 1919. [?]. We went down to Calais, [?] again. Bloody boat then in Calais, ready to run us up [?] can’t remember if it was Folkestone of Dover. As soon as we got to one of those, there was a [?] train ready to run us up to Holyhead. An I remember my Uncle Tom was a policeman [?] and he lived in [?]  Barnfield Road, Upper Barnet. Near Crystal Palace signal. Whilst that train was going though, I had my head out the window [?] and they were waving to us and we were waving back and one of the boys came up behind me and pushed my hat off. Had to go up to Holyhead without a hat, [?], so we got to Holyhead and the boat [?]  And it was there ready to take us to [Dublin north?]. And no [grub?] man, no one had a ration[?] . And in Dublin now there was a boat [?] apples. And some fell out the crate man. So I picked one up and started chewing see [?] In Dublin now, another [troop?] train. On the train now, up to a place called Newtownards [Camp] in the North East of Belfast. 00:53:28 Every jack one of us now, had to go through a [?] And we were policing districts such as [?], and Bangor. All around that area see, Belfast. Back to barracks then. It was as tight a camp exactly like Kinmel Park. So now then. 00:54:03 David MathiasDid you see any trouble whilst you were out there? 00:54:05 A V WheelerOh there was trouble, but we weren’t, the [?]. You see the Sinn Fain weren’t organized.. 00:54:16 David MathiasThey were further south weren’t they. The Dublin area weren’t they. 00:54:20 A V WheelerDown the Dublin area. Because in 1916 the Royal Welsh Fusiliers was the first one that was involved, the first person I knew him, he sat in that chair in 1916, during the Easter Rising, Mr. Simms[?], And he was beaten up badly in the Phoenix Bar [in Dublin]. And the military authorities looked after him, until he came home. And he had a job as an official to the, uh, to the British Embassy in Shanghai, under his majesty, Supreme Court of China. That man sat there, that chair, Mr. Simms. And his mother [?], Mr. Simms had his mother out there. And she started opening, what shall I say, uh, a hostel or a location, uh, club for seamen, of all nationalities in the world. [?] And how he came to know our family was. He had a brother, Seth Simms, and he ran away from home when he was a youngster. And he joined a ship, a sailing ship, in Sharpness Point. And, uh, that ship came into Burryport. In the latter part of the 1890s here. And, uh, the dock hadn't been open so very long, uh, the East Dock see.  And apparently now the skipper sent him up to the village now to get provisions. And he came up on the, [?]. I suppose Seth, uh, came back with the provisions. I don't know whether the boat was just about [?]. And he tried to board, he missed his step, and he fell between the key and the boat. And the boat come over and [killed him]. His grave is down there now. In the, uh, well, Pembroke Church. And, uh, he came down, to have a look around, you see. He was worth money you see; his mother came down to stay with my mother. For a good while. I don't know what my sisters have done with the photographs.A dear old lady, Mrs. Simms, wonderful. [?] 00:57:18 David MathiasHow long you lived here? 00:57:20 A V WheelerSince 1938. Forty-three years. [?] Anyhow now, Mrs. Simms stayed with my mother, they were great friends and then she went back to Stoud and the next thing for we heard that that she had died.Now, he had made certain arrangements now for her to be buried with her son in Pembrey.We acted as bearers now, [?] came down from Stroud, and me and Windham Gilman[?], he was an officer on sea, [?], there was four of us anyhow, we had the coffin and [?], [?] was the stone cutter, making the arrangements. So he left a certain amount of money now with my sister. She should go down now, every so often. And see that the grave is kept clean. You, see? Now he left money to, uh, to the stone cutter as well [?] He had bought a 30-room mansion in [?] and he kept that as a sort of a home, same principle as [?], for ways and strays that needed shelter and this and that, he bought a bloody mansion and paid for them. Then after, he died. [very benevolent people]  Now whilst I was living here. Where he was buried I can’t tell you. I never knew nothing more about [?] 00:59:33 David MathiasSo how long did you do in Ireland then? 00:59:36 A V WheelerI was in Ireland now from, [?], but we shifted now from Newtownards down to the South West, a place called [?] And that’s were old [Liam] O’Connell was visited now later on in the 20s, you see, when the boys caught him on the road and shot him. He’d been down there organizing. Now whilst we were in [Ennis?], Conway came down, and Will Webb [?] [?] In the prison, I know what it's called, the County [Clare], but the prison was Ennis. And uh, that was the airport down [?] south [?] Ireland, see.Now we were shifted on outpost duty; hundred and one of us. We had to travel now across [?] to a place called Killadysert, and there were three buildings there. One building was for a [?house], the other was a workhouse, and for girls that had fallen on the wayside, having kids and this and that. And the other place was a mental asylum. There was a master now in charge [?]. There was a high wall all around, you se. 01:01:33 Our job was, now, was to patrol around the different areas, you see. Everything was pretty quiet. An uh, I remember well a fellow named Douglas from Manchester.Now we were. There was a wet canteen now with a detachment. There was an Irish bloke, bartender there, see. And in the night now I went to look for Will. And he was in this canteen, and he had a pint of Guiness. Porter, they call it, see. So, I said [?] bartender to serve [?] because I looked so young, see. He believed me, man. Never drunk in my life, man. So anyhow now, [?] Rotten drunk, man. And them buggers were laughing at us, and that’s the first time I [?] .. and the last 01:02:52 David MathiasThat was with the borderers still, was it, south Wales Borderers? 53rd or 52nd? 01:02:52 A V WheelerSouth Wales borderers, 52nd.  01:02:59 David MathiasHow did you feel about the Irish situation, then? 01:03:00 A V WheelerWell, you see, it was different then to the trouble now. You see, there was no Republic and the way, it was all Ireland in all days. See.
 01:03:10 David MathiasSo how did you feel then?
 01:03:12 A V WheelerWell, my sympathies went out to the Irish. For the simple reason, that you see, they had various rich minerals there. You had a conservative government here, that would not have allowed up to mine. And that's where the poverty was, the was no industry there. 01:03:30 David MathiasThey were hard done by, weren’t they?
 01:03:32 A V Wheeler Oh Christ, When you see a girl, a beautiful girl, 20 years of age, with no bloody shoes and stockings, hard done by innit.And that's what used to, rile me, see, and my sympathies was with them. So anyhow, you could see lead mines that had been worked on by the [?] .. small scale in a manner of speaking  01:04:02 David MathiasAnd you left there then to be de-mobbed. 01:04:05 A V WheelerI had my de-mobbed then in Ireland. I think it was March the 20th, 19, No, March the 20th, 1920. Now we came back [?] The boys that had seen, the heaviest fighting in France, from the 14 to 1918. Their nerves were gone. Their method of feeling had gone, with what they had to put up and see.And they were brave fellows, mind. And there we were by the [?]01:04:46 And, all us boys, [?] got home. Bugger all. they had started D S and S. Discharged Sailors and Soldiers. And I think the first meeting was in 1919. And they had a silver badge, DSS, and a silver chain and a pin [?] So now then, we all got together, some of the boys that could speak, lets go to the council and see if they can do anything. Not the council [?] their engineers, [?], [?] all this see. So, what the councilors give us now was a fortnight of work. And it was in alphabetical order, see. The A, B, and C’s would be training around [?]D, E, F, G’s then, down to the tram road and some to the docks, see.H, I, J, K’s, I don’t know how many of them were, I don’t know, they were cleaning then from the branch of the tramline[?] down to [?] street. And when they Wheelers, Wilsons and Williams, we had the bloody wide gutter down the bottom, and up to your wait in mud[?]01:07:03 David MathiasSo how long were you unemployed for? Having come back from the army how long were you out of work for?
 01:07:13 A V WheelerOh, God almighty, I was out of work, you had a slump in 1921 no smoke coming out of the stacks anywhere, in Wales. Nine months of it, 1921
 01:07:28 David MathiasHow did you manage? 01:07:29 A V WheelerI was fishing. Cockles and bloody winkles, and mussels, whatever we could get hold of, man.But if you want to go for bread, bread was cheap, see.  I lad long lines and went fishing. I used to catch say 10 or 12 bass and bring them home, see. My father now, who was in poor health. [?] I would land the bass out there. And I’d have forty winks now, because I had to [?] every day [fishing bait?] In the washhouse now, you’d have sacks, clean sacks soaked in sea water. I used to soak the weed[?] now and put it in the sack. And I would have close to a thousand worms [?]. Autom to the summer. I would examine them every day, see, and pick out the [?] ones see, all clean bait see. I had a 128 hooks[?] on the lead weight. I used to go down there now, bait up, about quarter of an hour before the tide would come to the bottom.By the time I baited up that thing, see? The bait was fresh,Then I crossed over to the [?] By the time I got back now, have a bit of grub, it was time now for me to go back down now, as the tide was receded, to examine the line. Because I had them now, about half hour, after high water, see.Anyhow, I took the fish off, any fish, take them off.So, any one particular time now, it was around...we're talking about 1921,1922.And, uh, things, and now to go through history, it takes a long time, you see? In politics now.This works [Iron and tin plate works] now, would work for two months and out for three weeks.Now the orders, now we're shared with the associates, uh, what's the Clayton, the Wurster, the [?], Kidwelly. The order was shared out. Then the masters had a [?]. they closed the small works and keep the [?]. they had a pooling system.When this works was out, they were getting 500 pound a week form the pools that the master’s association had devised, to keep them out. Now the orders that should have been coming here, were going to the [Old Castle Works – Iron and tin Plate]Now then. After playing that title game. The Big Masters now. You’ve hear of the Ruhr haven’t you? In France. And what was the other place then... [?]Well anyhow, the Germans never paid the indemnity to this company, see, back to politics now.
 01:11:22 David MathiasThe reparations, is it?
 01:11:22 A V WheelerAye. And they never paid the French, and they caused [?]So, what did the French do? They sent in their troops in again around 1922-23, I think. And they cornered Ruhr and the [Saar?]. And the sad they were the big mining and steel, what you call them now, [regions] in Germany see. And the French took them over, see?See. The small employers now, [?], They were kept out, and remained out and there was nothing they could do about it. Because the big fellows in Parliament now had the say, see?So.I remember Frank Rees was the managing director of Llanelli Steel [Llanelly Steel Co]. I was very paly when he was at [?] from 1925. I went down to see him one day, about the boat. And the yard was full of cars, and all sorts, and quality cars. And I thought to myself, I said, make noises, there's something. And the something up was, how were they going to beat the government, to get their orders, to get their works [?]Now then. When the Belgians had re-modernized their steel works,And they were producing Belgian bars, though, the bars were something similar to ours, only more done up, they had beveled edges, see. Now they were produced with oil-fired furnaces. So that you could look through the visor and turn regularly at the oil for the burners, and you could bring them up to a [?], or drop up to a dull cherry, you see?But that iron should never have been warmed up to a [?], only a dull cherry.And that's just that was their working temperature. 01:13:41
 Now then, to get their works going now,they had to import Belgian bars, you see?To keep their works going.Now Frank Rees was the managing director of the steelworks. Now then, he had no chance of selling his bars now, which he used to do years ago in the [?], see?So, these Belgian bars were coming in. So, what did Frank Rees do now? He put up for Parliament, as an MP. And he had a meeting in the [?] And Mr. A. A. Lewis, now? Magistrates [?] started backing up now. And they were starting [?]So, I knew what was going on, now in the [?]. So, I thought to myself, if I dare open my mouth, I’ll have my two bloody wage packets in one, and that would be the end of me.The best thing for me to do now, is to get the stooge.Let him do the talking, that wasn’t working for him, see? Who did I have now it's old Tom Lewis. He was there now, and I said, watch it, no Tom. Don't mention my name for god’s sake.When is the chance of any questions?Put this one to him.Why is it, Mr. Rees, that you were a producer of tin bars… tin plate industry, and you import Belgian bars?‘How do you know I import Belgium bars?’Well, I said, what you want to do, if he asks you, Pretend that he was up on the north, and the slingers was discharging [?] and they were un-piled over, ready to be lifted into the wagons, and be distributed amongst the [works?] west Wales. And you tell him that you asked the slinger, where were these bars destined for. For the [?] tin plate works, and where are them going, Kidwelly Works, he said, see. [?] Williams, he was a member of parliament, but he was bloody useless. But this man now, he was a bit too [adrenal?] and had a bit of a cinema now down [?] road by there now, see. [?] Now you imagine people in business, and you knew the poor burgers would pay if they had it, but they didn't have it to pay. You see?Tom, now says to Frank, Frank Rees, the director now,  Mr. Rees, he said, would you mind me asking, letting me ask you a fair question?Fair enough, said Mr. Rees.
How much money do you have in the bank, he said.It's a very impertinent question to ask a man, isn’t it?Not at all, he said.If you were to ask me that question I'd answer it.I was a man of four figures, he said. But with your employees, coming for food and provisions to my shop, and you Mr. Lewis. I could not refuse, sir.So, I had to draw money out of the bank, to replenish my stock, so that they could be fed, knowing, I said, or hoping, that I'd get paid in later months when things look up.The meeting broke up like that, that smashed the bloody lot. There you are, that was the answer. And that's the way it was, 1925 on, then talking, then 1926, well you had the strikes, that's it.  And then you come up to the 1930s.
But let's go back to 1910. It was the same thing. You see, the liberals were in power. And because they passed the what you call a tariff reform, they busted the lot, and they went out, and they'd never been back since. 01:17:57 That's right. And David Steele (Lord Steel), he'd have kept his trap shut, Labour would have been in today. The Tories wouldn’t have had a hope, man. Because we lived under Tory rule before. You know [?] I was in the legion one night and, what they call was,  the Tories had got in. Now I said, now you know what bloody hardship will be, with these. They say mass unemployment started this bloody war. [?] talking like that, he says. A man of my age. If your father was alive, and heard you telling me that he'd kick your bloody ass. Because your father was with one of us when we started this bloody branch, in 1920. He was an ex-service man, same as us. To start this branch And I didn't like to tell him, that time when his mother was selling bloody [?] to get a living, it would honestly living, but there it was. 01:18:53 David MathiasSo, you started the [?] legion branch? You were one of the founders? 01:18:57 A V WheelerYes, I started. And I gave a photograph, on the first carnival they ever run. And I gave it to Will, but I said, hang it up in the bar for it to see it. Oh, I can't do that without the authority of the committee. No, the committee don't know who they are, and they're afraid to put it up, because the present committee think they're the founders of the bloody legion. 01:19:19 David MathiasSo, you still go down there, do you, Mr. Wheeler, for a pint? 01:19:21 A V WheelerI'll be there now. I go for bingo. I'm not [?] for a beer at all. I like to go there to mix with people like, I like a cigar, see. 01:19:38 David MathiasI must say, you are looking very fit. It's obviously keeping you very young. How do you feel in yourself? Do you feel all right? [?][laughter] 01:19:57 David MathiasWell, you’re obviously keeping very, very well. 01:20:02 A V WheelerWho are you then? [Alan?] said he’d been talking to a man, who uh, had been in the Navy or something. 01:20:04.170 --> 01:20:10.030Well, I was telling me that you was talking to a man, I don't know, been 01:20:10 David MathiasWell, I served in the Navy, yes. Then I left the Navy and I joined the Army. 01:20:14 A V WheelerWell, what years were you in the Navy? 01:20:19 David Mathias67 to 80. 01:20:21 A V WheelerNow, when I came out of the Army, going back 1932, see. I was two years now. I came out in March 1920 under the Irish Command. I never had no bloody medals…[?]…entitled to the general service and the victory. And a Blue Chevrons, see. They brought the Blue Chevrons, but no medals. 01:20:42.330 David MathiasWhy is it blue? 01:20:44 A V WheelerBecause when I applied the Navy in 1922 and [?] I surely get into the bloody Navy. No messing. But Ivor [?] was my mate, see. And Iva now was mad to go to sea. All right, I said, do you know anything about the sea Ivor? [?] And I said, the best thing for you to do, you know, we'll go down the docks, and we go to the tug [?]. And see what you think of the sea. And, uh, yes, come on.Old [Prior?] now, uh, was the engineer. And Tom Richards, now Agnes Richards, his father, was a fireman, see. And when [Prior?] left then, Tom Richards came engineer. And Dan Owen then, was a big fat bloke, see. [?] 01:22:00 So, Ivor and I, Dan Owen was on. And it was in the morning we went out. It was blowing, a little fresh, you know, nothing to worry about. And to the [?]And, uh, Ivor stood on deck. And hanging on, uh, to the, uh, the straps, you know. [?] And Ivor was hanging on to them, he had no sea legs, you see..And we got out to the bay, now, and, uh, stopped the engines and she was adrift waiting for the ships to come out.  [?][short break] 01:22:51 A V WheelerAnd as the wind takes you...You got a job to watch the movement of the boat now to get your sea legs, because she's all shape, see. [?] So...You know, the fiddley at the back now. So when they coil, it's a thing with a lot of square holes in it, like a platform.And they coil the tow rope on that, see.So old, Dan now… [?]… a line with the fish, see. [?] Oh, just laugh.Well, anyhow, now, Ivor was enjoying the trip, see? So one night, it was blowing four-six.All the boys, the pilots, you know, see. And the old pilots, you know Billy Francie?He died now, uh, [?]. He died a couple of months ago, man. Well, his father, he was a pilot.Hell of a [?].  Now, now, you should tell a story. And one story was that, as he was a youngster going to sea, he had to go now with the helmsman, see… [?] He laughed now, see, on the platform. [?]so I supposed now, the helmsman says to the kid. See that star up there, he said, and see the [?] I want you to seer now and keep the bot straight now, in line with that star all the time. I’m going down for a cup of coffee, he said. [?] wind now. The kid couldn’t hold the bloody wheel, picked him up all over the place. There were so many stars in the sky, he lost the bloody star you see. [helmsman] came up now. How are we doing son? Give me another star, he said, to seer, I’ve passed that one. So now. 01:25:35 Dan had been on the [booze ?]. There were two boilers, by there see. Port side and starboard, see.So now, Dan had been on the bush, and he had the two boilers with his seat,He had the bunkers on either side, what was that one, see?[?]Dan was sick, now I'm sitting on the bucket upside down. At the side of the bucket.[?]So, he puts the shuttle in now, see?When he went to shove it in, the bloody fireballs will go by there. He chucked it against the door he just shut.Oh, boys, hell of a job. You’ll get used to it, I said. And you must be double handed.So anyhow, now,He walked away to join the Navy. Commander [Paddy Boyle?] [?]. And Salter of Cardiff was the admiral to the [?]And, uh, Ivor went away now, and he had from the education department now, they wanted a composition, arithmetic, dictation, something like what the knowledge now of your home surroundings, like, you know, the barge industry and shipping and stuff like that.So, after you finish them, you send them back. But you had to do them under the eye of Sergeant Prothero in the police station. He was the sergeant at the time, see? So, Sergeant Prothero had Ivor in now. And he went through them all, now. So, Sergeant Prothero looked at the, he sealed up.And he said, you go post that now.Now I said, uh, you know what, sir. I’m very sure I’ll get in, sir, being that I’ve been in the army, see. So he said, I’ll come with you. Fed up getting nothing.So, anyhow. Ivor got though, and he sent me a letter saying he had to go down to [?]